The Gaming Den

Fuchs wrote:I beg to differ. If you can kill someone you can capture them as well - I cannot be the only one who used nets, spells, poison or other means to immobilize the PCs, then club them senseless, that's a staple of so many books and movies.

Bullfuckingshit. In order to capture PCs, you almost certainly need to hold back. I say almost certainly because save or suck spells exist. But if you're playing around with weaksauce bullshit like nets and poison, then definitely. But in any case, if the enemies succeed they are clearly strong enough to overpower the equipped PCs.

Now.

Either you have the Worst Prison Ever, in which case this was just a pointless time wasting wankfest, or they actually ya know, lock you up and take your stuff away. And just that latter thing makes it automatically and infinitely worse than death. But more to the point, you could not beat these fuckers when you had all of the tools at your disposal. Now you have lost most of them. They're still there. In fact there's probably more of them 'at home' than on their 'away team'. So now the enemy forces are just as strong as they were, if not stronger but you are considerably weaker. You could not beat them then to avoid this mess, how are you supposed to beat them now to get out of it? If you said anything other than 'You don't, you fucking fucker' you aren't paying enough attention and need to subject yourself to the Folding Chair of Salvation until you understand basic math.

So now the party is out of commission forever. Even ignoring the value of the loot they lost entirely, this clearly and objectively is a fate worse than death. Because even if you do perma die, there is a non zero possibility you can at least die well and come to a good end.

Bubba is not a good end.

QED.

And I'm not even fucking touching RC's bullshit straw men, and whining about how his railroad is derailed but oh yeah, I'm the Gygaxian one and not him.

Roy wrote:

Psychic Robot wrote:Suggesting that someone put an end to a (one-sided) flamewar is trolling?

Putting a deliberately ambiguous content like that with no substance that makes out as if utter Logic Fail and Deevolution of the forums was somehow good and desirable is.

I was supporting TGD's continued worth by suggesting a course of action that would put an end to the current discussion, as said discussion is degrading TGD's worth.

ANYWAY. 4e monster design is shitty; their stats don't even work lol.

I'm rather confused how many spells drop your foe but are non-lethal?

-Crissa

Dominate Person/Monster.

Hold Person/Monster followed by the old "Sap on the head".

Flesh to Stone.

Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud etc.

Summon a few grappling monsters and have them restrain the target, then tie it up/knock it out.

Polymorph Other.

Various Wall or Sphere spells, in certain conditions.

Fuchs wrote:Hold Person/Monster followed by the old "Sap on the head". Sleep.

Taking into account that the monsters are specifically choosing to coup de grace with non lethal, assuming your PCs are not immune to it. These are actual drop but not kill.

Fuchs wrote:Flesh to Stone. Dominate Person/Monster. Polymorph Other.

These are really just kill spells.

Fuchs wrote:Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud etc. Summon a few grappling monsters and have them restrain the target, then tie it up/knock it out.

These don't actually restrain anyone long enough or well enough for even the most convoluted of explanations to justify using them and not killing your opponents.

Fuchs wrote:Various Wall or Sphere spells, in certain conditions.

These can restrain in certain very rare conditions, as long as the PCs really suck, but since stupid terrible sucky PCs are what we are talking about, they work in those conditions.

I don't find that list of spells to be umm... Very long. How many spells are in core?

-Crissa

It's long enough for spells, and all I named are core. Of course there are more mundane means as well, and then there are players who will surrender if faced with what looks like overwhleming odds - which happened more than once, even if the fight would have been not too dangerous.

But generally I found I have enough tools to subdue rather than kill PCs, which is all that counts for me.

Kaelik wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Hold Person/Monster followed by the old "Sap on the head". Sleep.

Taking into account that the monsters are specifically choosing to coup de grace with non lethal, assuming your PCs are not immune to it. These are actual drop but not kill.

Why Coup the Grace? Just go for subdual damage (and iterative at higher levels), it's not as if they can dodge well. And Of couse that's more for NPCs, especailly those ordered to take them alive, than monsters.

Kaelik wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Flesh to Stone. Dominate Person/Monster. Polymorph Other.

These are really just kill spells.

No. Stone to Flesh and Polymorph Other do not kill, and are reversible - and staples of fantasy. And I cannot fathom why you'd think Dominate Person is a kill spell. A lone PC hit by it can be ordered to drop all weapons and magic items and other tools and let himself get tied up. A PC in a party can be ordered to subdue another PC. (And once the PCs see the other side's not straight killing them, surrender becomes more appealing than fighting to death.)

Kaelik wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud etc. Summon a few grappling monsters and have them restrain the target, then tie it up/knock it out.

These don't actually restrain anyone long enough or well enough for even the most convoluted of explanations to justify using them and not killing your opponents.

At the low levels one uses them, a sap or two to the head is all you need to knock someone out. How can you consider that convulted? Put them to sleep, then knock them unconscious, easily done.

Kaelik wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Various Wall or Sphere spells, in certain conditions.

These can restrain in certain very rare conditions, as long as the PCs really suck, but since stupid terrible sucky PCs are what we are talking about, they work in those conditions.

Hence the "certain conditions".

Fuchs wrote:Why Coup the Grace? Just go for subdual damage (and iterative at higher levels), it's not as if they can dodge well. And Of couse that's more for NPCs, especailly those ordered to take them alive, than monsters.

All those spells render them coup de grace able. So you can take one round, or two, why take two?

Fuchs wrote:No. Stone to Flesh and Polymorph Other do not kill, and are reversible - and staples of fantasy. And I cannot fathom why you'd think Dominate Person is a kill spell. A lone PC hit by it can be ordered to drop all weapons and magic items and other tools and let himself get tied up. A PC in a party can be ordered to subdue another PC. (And once the PCs see the other side's not straight killing them, surrender becomes more appealing than fighting to death.)

Except that if you manage to land any of those spells on a PC, they stop being a PC for duration infinity. If you control them, they are not PCs, if they are a block of stone they are not a PC. If they are a rabbit, well they might be a PC, but probably not. Also, please, Baleful Polymorph.

Fuchs wrote:At the low levels one uses them, a sap or two to the head is all you need to knock someone out. How can you consider that convulted? Put them to sleep, then knock them unconscious, easily done.

Why waste time casting spells at all when you can knock someone unconscious with a single strike or two. If you are using subdual damage incapacitate them, then you aren't using the spells to do it, you are using subdual damage.

If you cast a Fireball, then have your monsters hit them with subdual, you aren't incapacitating them with fireball. You are doing it with subdual damage.

Which of course brings up the point of why on earth everyone is using subdual damage, and why on earth they are stupid enough to let people escape after tying them up and taking all their items.

4e quirks; what about the fact that you can grab and 'imobilize' a swarm with your bare hands (or even with just one hand)? is it quirky enough ?

Every time I try to picture how that could happen my brain implode.

Truth is, this happen with a lot of things of 4e for me

Unless they've errataed it, that "immobilized" condition is one big quirk unto itself. The original PHB says that immobilized characters "can't move from [their] space" unless pushed or pulled by another character's action. It doesn't say you can't use your powers. Apparently, being immobilized really means you can swing your weapon or make grand spellcasting gestures as long as you don't travel more than 5 ft.

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:Unless they've errataed it, that "immobilized" condition is one big quirk unto itself. The original PHB says that immobilized characters "can't move from [their] space" unless pushed or pulled by another character's action. It doesn't say you can't use your powers. Apparently, being immobilized really means you can swing your weapon or make grand spellcasting gestures as long as you don't travel more than 5 ft.

Meh, it's just a root. It's a bad name, but so what, lots of names are bad.

Kaelik wrote:All those spells render them coup de grace able. So you can take one round, or two, why take two?

Cause the enemy wants them alive - for ransom, information, or to sacrifice them to their dark gods when the full moon illuminates the altar.

Kaelik wrote: Except that if you manage to land any of those spells on a PC, they stop being a PC for duration infinity. If you control them, they are not PCs, if they are a block of stone they are not a PC. If they are a rabbit, well they might be a PC, but probably not. Also, please, Baleful Polymorph.

I don't understand what you mean by this. They stay PCs, even if they can't act until they are conscious again. Same as if they go to sleep in an inn. In actual play, the DM would fast forward to "You wake up and see..." once the last PC has been incapacitated.

Kaelik wrote: Why waste time casting spells at all when you can knock someone unconscious with a single strike or two. If you are using subdual damage incapacitate them, then you aren't using the spells to do it, you are using subdual damage.

If you cast a Fireball, then have your monsters hit them with subdual, you aren't incapacitating them with fireball. You are doing it with subdual damage.

All that matters is the end result. If a sap alone is enough of course that will be done - but a wizard NPC might prefer to use a spell first, to speed things up, if he has not sufficient numbers of henchmen to swarm the PCs.

Kaelik wrote:Which of course brings up the point of why on earth everyone is using subdual damage, and why on earth they are stupid enough to let people escape after tying them up and taking all their items.

Not everyone, of course. But using subdual damage is a good way to avoid death in the cases where the PCs are losing.

The "prisoner escape" plot is a staple of literature and movies, and good enough for many players. That's reason enough for me.

Fuchs wrote:Cause the enemy wants them alive - for ransom, information, or to sacrifice them to their dark gods when the full moon illuminates the altar.

You can coup de grace with non lethal and still do that.

I don't understand what you mean by this. They stay PCs, even if they can't act until they are conscious again. Same as if they go to sleep in an inn. In actual play, the DM would fast forward to "You wake up and see..." once the last PC has been incapacitated.

But they never wake up. Because they are stone, or eternal slaves, or rabbits with the brain of a rabbit. Or dead.

All that matters is the end result. If a sap alone is enough of course that will be done - but a wizard NPC might prefer to use a spell first, to speed things up, if he has not sufficient numbers of henchmen to swarm the PCs.

Don't claim you are incapacitating them with spells when you aren't. If they are immune to non-lethal, they still can't be captured. And no matter what, they can't be captured without the Monsters specifically using non lethal for some strange reason.

Not everyone, of course. But using subdual damage is a good way to avoid death in the cases where the PCs are losing.

The "prisoner escape" plot is a staple of literature and movies, and good enough for many players. That's reason enough for me.

You know what else is a staple of literature? The single character destiny with bullshit plot powers that no one believes. There is no way to escape without the entire game ceasing to mean anything.

Not to mention, let's look at what we have: Rabbit escapes, Stone gets up and Run away. Eternal Slave runs off. Unconscious people on an altar being sacrificed waking up, breaking their bonds, and killing the entire congregation.

None of those are even remotely possible, much less realistic.

Kaelik wrote:But they never wake up. Because they are stone, or eternal slaves, or rabbits with the brain of a rabbit. Or dead.

I don't get it. If you want to capture someone you can. Flesh to Stone works just fine. Of course you don't have to wake them up. But you also don't have to capture them in the first place. Why would you expend additional effort to capture someone and then do nothing with them?

Crissa wrote:I'm rather confused how many spells drop your foe but are non-lethal?

Well, that's one of the delightful quirks of 4e. All spells can be used non-lethally. For example, Hurl Through Heck, where Heck is filled with people bludgeoning the target with giant non-lethal spoons.

Murtak wrote:I don't get it. If you want to capture someone you can. Flesh to Stone works just fine. Of course you don't have to wake them up. But you also don't have to capture them in the first place. Why would you expend additional effort to capture someone and then do nothing with them?

1) Flesh to Stone is one of the absolute best kill spells in the game, since it does the same thing as Finger of Death, but at lower level and to more targets. You aren't spending additional resources to capture them.

2) I see very few reasons why you would want to in the first place. Especially since you are claiming that it should happen basically every single time, every week or so.

3) There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, no matter how much you try, for them to ever unstone them in a situation where they can escape. Just like they should never be undominated (that's just ever, you should never let them escape the dominated state ever) and they would never wake them up where they can escape.

Fuchs wrote:Not everyone, of course.

So then you recognize that your own damn scenario for how you (a liar) claim you play your games is stupid.

But with that admission you also reintroduce PC death so WTF?

Put up already, you house rule the damage system don't you fucking mealy mouthed liar.

But using subdual damage is a good way to avoid death in the cases where the PCs are losing.

Oh I see.... so the NPCs all feel bad for the PCs when the NPCs start winning a little too much, so they actively make the decision to lose or at least win less.

And that doesn't feel like humiliating condescending failure to your players, nooo, never....

Also FYI, Flesh to Stone, Baleful polymorph, KILL SPELLS YOU DICK.

Almost every other "gentleman's agreement" SoD nerfer in existence recognizes them as such, only because you are scrabbling for capture shit do you pretend they aren't.

Stoning and Toading are effects that cripple a character completely and forever barring specific curative spell applications, exactly like Death you idiot Indeed. They are actually even harder to heal than death is!

There is two different aspects here, namely capturing and save-or-lose.

Capturing is quite possible, using subdual damage, spells like Flesh to Stone or one of many other abilities. Whether anyone wants to capture their enemies is of coruse up to them, but it is certainly possible, and usually not much harder than killing them.

The fight itself is still deadly however, since it is damn hard to get into a state where you are out of the fight, but can return with assistance. Sure, a Flesh to Stone might not literally kill you, but you are still out of the fight for good. The same goes for many other effects. Really the only widely spread choice left is subdual damage, which is a shitty tactic if mixed with regular damage, since you basically double all healing effects for your enemies.

Well, at least I'm not the only one to realize those things are Fates Worse Than Death, and are smiting the dumbfuck squad hard for it.

Also, spellcasters got extra action spells again in Player's Handbook 2 anyway.

So suck on your failure, 3.5E.


Seriously, did 3.5E do anything the fanboys liked other than changing haste/harm/heal? Coming in distant fourth place is the monk example, which has its own fucking problems.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Seriously, did 3.5E do anything the fanboys liked other than changing haste/harm/heal? Coming in distant fourth place is the monk example, which has its own fucking problems.

They made the Ranger class less front-loaded. And...uh...

PhoneLobster wrote:

Fuchs wrote:Not everyone, of course.

So then you recognize that your own damn scenario for how you (a liar) claim you play your games is stupid.

But with that admission you also reintroduce PC death so WTF?

Put up already, you house rule the damage system don't you fucking mealy mouthed liar.

But using subdual damage is a good way to avoid death in the cases where the PCs are losing.

Oh I see.... so the NPCs all feel bad for the PCs when the NPCs start winning a little too much, so they actively make the decision to lose or at least win less.

And that doesn't feel like humiliating condescending failure to your players, nooo, never....

Also FYI, Flesh to Stone, Baleful polymorph, KILL SPELLS YOU DICK.

Almost every other "gentleman's agreement" SoD nerfer in existence recognizes them as such, only because you are scrabbling for capture shit do you pretend they aren't.

Stoning and Toading are effects that cripple a character completely and forever barring specific curative spell applications, exactly like Death you idiot Indeed. They are actually even harder to heal than death is!

I would debate if past level 9 or so there's actually PC death in Core anymore. I certainly don't see a 5K gold and 10 minutes time cost as "death". As I said I'd rather have some "treat this as a movie, where the bad guys want you alive" scenes if things go south than trying to deal with a game world where death is nothing but a monetary setback. And if that means that I have the enemies go for capture instead of killing if they've got the upper hand, so be it. It certainly doesn't lessen the fun of my group - quite the contrary.

Spells that allow a rather easy reversal for anyone who can cast them - like flesh to stone or polymorph - are not kill spells. Unless of course you consider any temporary setback for PCs a "kill". I see waking up in prison after the wizard reversed his spell as a bit different from waking up in the afterlife.

There are numerous examples of people escaping from captivity. Unlikely? Mabye. But we're playing a game where we've got heroes, and for heroes, such scenes are likely (and fun).

Kaelik wrote:

Murtak wrote:I don't get it. If you want to capture someone you can. Flesh to Stone works just fine. Of course you don't have to wake them up. But you also don't have to capture them in the first place. Why would you expend additional effort to capture someone and then do nothing with them?

1) Flesh to Stone is one of the absolute best kill spells in the game, since it does the same thing as Finger of Death, but at lower level and to more targets. You aren't spending additional resources to capture them.

2) I see very few reasons why you would want to in the first place. Especially since you are claiming that it should happen basically every single time, every week or so.

3) There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, no matter how much you try, for them to ever unstone them in a situation where they can escape. Just like they should never be undominated (that's just ever, you should never let them escape the dominated state ever) and they would never wake them up where they can escape.

You see no reasons. I do. Again, different playing styles. I'd rather give captured PCs a chance to escape than start a new campaign, others don't.

Fuchs wrote:I would debate if past level 9 or so there's actually PC death in Core anymore. I certainly don't see a 5K gold and 10 minutes time cost as "death". As I said I'd rather have some "treat this as a movie, where the bad guys want you alive" scenes if things go south than trying to deal with a game world where death is nothing but a monetary setback. And if that means that I have the enemies go for capture instead of killing if they've got the upper hand, so be it. It certainly doesn't lessen the fun of my group - quite the contrary.

You have a lot of talk about being only a monetary setback, but you are wrong. You also need to have someone who wants you alive enough to spend that cash, and who has your dead body on hand. If the party get's defeated, then that means you don't have either.

You are just dead dead.

Fuchs wrote:Spells that allow a rather easy reversal for anyone who can cast them - like flesh to stone or polymorph - are not kill spells. Unless of course you consider any temporary setback for PCs a "kill". I see waking up in prison after the wizard reversed his spell as a bit different from waking up in the afterlife.

Once again, WTF is it with you and your no one ever wants their enemies dead bullshit. These aren't liberal hippy Orcs, if they unstone you, it's only to coup de grace your tied up ass and start eating your body. Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone are not temporary setbacks, they are permanent ones. Because when you get Stoned, they break the statue into pieces and when you get squirreled they cook they squirrel over a fire.

There is fucking no reason to spend a 5th or 6th level spell to reverse a permanent neutralizer on your enemies, only to hand them back all their gear and wish them luck. Which is what you are doing every time you let a party escape from a crappy cell that couldn't hold a level 1 character, while they are completely unguarded and then they find a completely unguarded chest full of all their gear 15ft outside the cell.

The fact is, every single one of your villains is actually more ridiculous than Dr Evil of Austin Powers. At least he had the fucking decency to not have a freaking fully loaded assault rifle sitting 5ft away from the shark tank.

Fuchs wrote:There are numerous examples of people escaping from captivity. Unlikely? Mabye. But we're playing a game where we've got heroes, and for heroes, such scenes are likely (and fun).

They are all jokes. Every single one of them. The only time people escape from captivity is after years of plotting. And then it's still rare. And whoever captures them doesn't bother to install prosthetic legs with super speed to help out the escapees.